session notes

-- Start log: Thursday, April 29, 1999 6:53:07 pm Old Pueblo MOO time --

michael has arrived.
michael  hears the bell tower
Gloria arrives.
MichaelV arrives.
michael says, "hi, gloria ..."
MichaelV says, "hey"
MichaelV leaves.
MichaelV has arrived.
MichaelV says, "hey guys"
MichaelV says, "and girls"
Gloria says, ""Hi Mike"
MichaelV says, "evening gloria"
lisa guest arrives.
michael says, "is it rude to work on other stuff in another window?"
lisa guest says, "hi"
Gloria says, "'Are we supposed to respond to the queestion on the blackboard"
MichaelV says, "no... I will be pulling up my e-mail while we are doing this. so I can talk about what people wrote about on that list serv"
lisa guest says, "I think I may be lost"
michael says, "ha ... that's not my blackboard question .... but go ahead!"
Gloria says, "'no your in the right place"
michael says, "mike and lisa -- hi -- any luck on the phone calls?"
madam guest arrives.
MichaelV says, "not on my end... they asked me why I was calling them"
Gloria says, "'Hi, Adam"
MichaelV says, "they told me to call the university attorney's office"
lisa guest says, "Well, today I got a hold of a man named Tony and he answered some of my questions"
Erangi arrives.
MichaelV says, "and none too polite either"
madam guest says, "Hi everyone""
MichaelV waves at madam guest.
michael says, "lisa -- where does tony work?"
michael  waves to madam guest
Erangi says, "hi every one did I miss anything?"
Gloria says, "'Hi, Erangi!"
lisa guest says, "Arizona Board of Regents"
MichaelV says, "Erangi you are soooooooooo far behind..."
MichaelV chuckles.
michael says, "where is everyone? i'm in ml512 ...."
Erangi says, "hi gloria how are you?"
MichaelV says, "not really"
lisa guest says, "I'm in 412"
MichaelV says, "me too"
Gloria says, "'I am at home, this is sooo cool it's working!"
michael says, "who else is in 412? just curious ...."
MichaelV says, "I know the feeling"
Erangi says, "I am at home"
MichaelV says, "just us"
madam guest says, "I'm at home""
MichaelV says, "and a couple of other students from God knows where"
michael says, "lisa -- that's great you got through .... what did you ask him?"
MichaelV pokes at Erangi.
michael says, "by the way -- the recoreder is on here -- this is being taped, just so you know."
lisa guest says, "I asked about the quote and he said it had no relevance to students only to people making transactios between the University and businesses"
MichaelV says, "why do you think I haven't said anything I shouldn't have, or done any actions that are inappropriate"
Gloria says, "'Thiss is an infringement of my copyrights'"
MichaelV laughs.
michael says, "lisa -- did you mention that it says "students"?"
MichaelV says, "hey mike I am assuming you read the listserv e-mails that pertained to us?"
MichaelV nods at michael.
lisa guest says, "I also asked what the status was and he said it was read in April and the final read will be in May and then it will be adopted.  As for the students I did mention them but he said I was basically wrong"
Gloria says, "'What listserv e-mails"
MichaelV says, "The e-mails from the listserv that i signed up for, it has lawyers on it."
lisa guest says, "what is the listserv chat all about?"
Erangi says, "Michael IV, how do you show the feelings (laugh, nod...)? "
MichaelV says, "type "feelings""
MichaelV says, "it gives you a list"
lisa guest says, "feelings" happy"
michael says, "... wow ... this is interesting .... i'm reading the paragraph at http://www.u.arizona.edu/ic/moore/414/mooip.html and it says "e. student works""
Erangi says, "feelings" laugh"
MichaelV says, "just type laugh"
MichaelV says, "typing feelings gives you the list"
michael says, "mike, what did the posts say?"
Erangi laughs.
lisa guest says, "I started the conversation with the basic: If a student uses a computer a significant amount does that give them right to the students work.  He said students were not involved. "
michael  watches everyone laughing
Erangi says, "it worked thakes Michael IV"
MichaelV says, "well one gave us an interesting scenario, the other just recommended they change their policy to save money from attorney's fees"
Gloria says, "'I did see that Michael and our work is not sponsor-supported'"
MichaelV says, "or they will be facing legal trouble in the future"
madam guest grins.
michael says, "gloria, right -- i agree, but what about " or the student"
michael says, ""or the student  makes significant use of university resources ..."?"
michael says, " mike can you forward those e-mails to me, please?"
Gloria says, "'I want my diffusion report off-line"
lisa guest says, "He asked me if I had the proposal in front of me and ofcourse I didn't so I couldn't really make a valid argument."
Erangi says, "Michael, I have decided to interview you. is there a time I could come and meet you?"
michael says, "lisa -- ouch. are you going to call him back?"
madam guest says, "se"nt u "significautesnstito"That's my trouble, if we make use of the multimedia lab what c"
michael says, "erangi, interview me now ...."
MichaelV says, "I am doing that right now... funny you asked"
lisa guest says, "Extra Credit????Hmmmm... j/k  I don't know.. should I?"
michael says, "lisa, well we have this official state of arizona document that says "student works" and the guy in phoniex says it doesn't apply to students .... uhhhhh"
Gloria says, "'Michael, is Bettig joining us after all?"
lisa guest says, "True so someone doesn't knoe their a#* from their elbow or he's lying."
lisa guest says, "is that bad talk?"
Erangi says, "I feel odd doing this on the Moo, I am new to chatting like this... I can't take notes while chatting and reading"
michael says, "gloria ...no, he's not, unfortunately ... i wish he was"
MichaelV says, "beetig?"
MichaelV says, "bettig?"
madam guest says, "so what constitutes 'significant use'""
lisa guest says, "We love the MOO!!!"
MichaelV says, "that is what we are trying to decide...nice one lisa"
michael says, " erangi -- it's all recorded -- as soon as we're done, i can send you the transcript via e-mail, and that can be your notes ..."
Erangi says, "i am beggining to love it too but still slow in typing"
michael says, " erangi, i'm the slowest typist in here .... :-)"
lisa guest says, "I'm not sure about significant use.  That would have been a good question but my idea was shot down when the students were."
MichaelV says, "oh it gets fun when you can type fast... I see all the time I spent MUDing comes in handy."
michael says, "lisa -- so you'll call him back? was he friendly?"
MichaelV says, "what do you mean by when the students were lisa? and what was your idea?"
lisa guest says, "Don't worry, Erangi.  I stink at typing also."
lisa guest says, "He wasn't very friendly or helpful.  He was either very busy or just didn't care to talk to me."
MichaelV says, "sounds like the office of technology transfer"
Erangi says, ""lisa, who was this person who didn't care?"
michael says, "mike -- did you get through to your person?"
MichaelV says, "the secretary or whoever I talked to made it sound like I was putting her out."
Gloria says, "'Didn't you guys read the significant use part....shall include, use of support staff, use of telecommunication services, use of university central computing resources, acess to and use of research equipment and facilities...!'"
michael says, "mike, and ....?"
lisa guest says, "the idea was to find out why they had access to students work.  OK so, it's not an idea it's a question."
michael says, "we have support staff in the COHLab, don't we?"
MichaelV says, "I talked to a woman and she said "Why are you calling here? I have no idea, maybe you should call the regents.""
lisa guest says, "This guy Tony at the Arizona Board of Regents"
MichaelV says, "I told her that was already taken care of and she said "Well maybe Dave might know, I will have him call you.""
MichaelV says, "dave never called"
michael says, "mike, but it's on *their* web site -- not on the Regents' http://vpr2.admin.arizona.edu/ott/ABORdraft.htm"
michael says, "sounds like you both got the runaround ...."
michael says, "erangi -- going to interview me?"
MichaelV says, "I called back after Dave never called and she then referred me to the university of Arizona attorney's office, but didn't give me the phone number"
Gloria says, "'I think we should protest and boycott until we get a response"
lisa guest says, "He also told me it referred to University researchers; scientists etc.  Do they constitute as students?"
MichaelV says, "I vote for a sit-in in the President's office!"
Erangi says, "Micheal, If I just get information from chris would it"
michael says, "lisa, it says "students" ... that's pretty plain english ... are you comfortable calling him back?"
Gloria says, "'Michael, I believe that since we are not under University-Assisted Projects or Employee-Initiiated Wworks then it shouldn't apply to us'"
MichaelV says, "the way it is worded... students: blah blah blah, make significant use of etc... that sounds to me like it applies to us"
Erangi says, "Micheal when you take abstracts, notes... to use in class, is there any procedure that   you go through?"
lisa guest says, "I realize the student situation but if and when I call him back should I be a little stern with him and have a copy on me?"
MichaelV says, "definitely the copy"
MichaelV says, "stern... only if you need to be"
lisa guest says, "more or less bull headed"
michael says, "lisa .... i'd hold off on 'stern' :-) ................ we'll save that for mike"
lisa guest says, " So, what am I supposed to be some passive girlie?"
michael says, "erangi -- when i make the class notes page? is that what you mean, or my regular planning notes for class?"
lisa guest says, "just kidding"
MichaelV says, "what? what? why are you going to be stern with me? Or do I get to be stern... heh heh"
Gloria says, "'I still think that it deoesn't apply unless for example if Michael wanted to publish a semester project done by everyone in the class and wanted to take credit then it would become part of university if we used the resources.'"
michael says, " gloria .... are you suggesting that we're overreading that passage -- that it doesn't apply to students?"
Erangi says, "Michael, when you give us hand outs, and when you are linking websites to your page and all that "
michael says, " ah, that is what you're suggesting"
michael says, "erangi, linking isn't really a problem (yet) -- handouts i have to more careful about .... there are laws about what i can photocopy and what i can't ... and how much, and how often, etc."
Gloria says, "'I think so, but I would like it clarified by the person who put this on-line anyways!!!! Just for protection, and his/her comment on my recording machine.'"
michael  laughs @ gloria
michael  going to reread that passage
Gloria says, "'It is really under headings that don't belong to us in general.'"
Erangi says, "what does the University English Dept tell the instructores regarding this? HAve they told you what to use and what not? "
Gloria says, "'It's not the passage itself Michael it's where it is placed.'"
madam guest says, "yes Gloria, in C 4 e it says the student is clear""
MichaelV says, "Hi Kimberly"
MichaelV waves at Kimberly.
lisa guest says, "sleepy  uhh choo"
michael says, "gloria, you are so right ... it's a tech writing problem, really ...... bad placement ...... i noticed that, too ..."
MichaelV says, "god bless you lisa"
Gloria says, "'For example, if we were doing a project along with the university and they have given us resources to use then they want some credit naturally.'"
MichaelV says, "well they are giving us resources to use now, i.e. computers, library, etc..."
MichaelV says, "right?"
Gloria says, "'That's a University-Assisted Project.'"
lisa guest says, "what if you do the research on your own do they still want credit for the use of their resources?"
MichaelV says, "that is what I am screaming"
michael says, " erangi, no ... the dept. has no guidelines ..... it's all very new ...... lots of people are confused"
Gloria says, "'I don't think so.'"
MichaelV says, "we are at an impass folks"
lisa guest says, "where do you draw the line?"
michael says, "mike, then it's a bad document, isn't it, if it leads to impasse?"
MichaelV says, "excuse my mispelling, and yes it is.  Sets them up for legal trouble"
michael says, "lisa will straighten it all out with the folks in phoenix"
Gloria says, "'If it comes down to it, we can clearly show that if not a University-Assisted Project of Employee-Initiated Work then it doesn't apply and should not apply."
Erangi says, "Michael, So if you use the university resourses to make photocopies of a document to give as hand outs is it the university that could fall in to truouble?"
lisa guest says, "no pressure:-)"
MichaelV says, "they need to clarify their language."
madam guest says, "If you're merely using physical resources why should the university have their hands on our intellectual creation?""
lisa guest says, "good point and that's what we are trying to find out.  If they are really stating that they are entitled"
michael says, "erangi -- you know, that's a good question. i think they come after *me*, not the university. in one case, publishers went after the company, because the copying was systematic: American Geophysical Union V. Texaco Inc."
Gloria says, "'In number 6 it says "Individual Project:  Ownership of i.p. developed by university personnel shall reside with the Board, unlessssss the creator of the i.p. can demonstrate that it was not developed as a Sponsor-supported project, at a university-assidned project, or a univeisty-assisted proeject as defined above.!'"
michael  likes madam guest's question
Erangi says, "Michael,I think since the university can claim anything as theirs if their resources were uses, they should also be responsible for something like that, no you or any other for that matter... do you think?"
lisa guest says, "I guess it's just if you get caught...JOKE"
Gloria says, "'You have to read our section======Individual Projects!!!'"
michael says, " erangi there's a link to the court's opinion in th etexaco case (they lost) at: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~moore/ip_fund.html"
madam guest says, "as long as you don't make any money, i guess.""
Gloria says, "'Did anybody continue reading to number 6 ?"
Erangi says, "Michael, which is the party that lost?"
MichaelV says, "very true lisa, "You are only wrong if you get caught." or so it seems like in today's world"
MichaelV says, "Gloria, are you an attorney for the university?"
michael says, "mike, i just read your e-mails forwarded from th ecopyright listserv ... thank you ... we're clearly on the right track here, asking these questions. "
MichaelV says, "no problem, glad I could help"
lisa guest says, "I personally think that the only way it is legit copyright is if you take someone elses thoughts not objects.  "
MichaelV hmms.
MichaelV says, "interesting"
Gloria says, "'No I am not really fond of this institution, but that is what the document says'"
MichaelV says, "sorry bad joke."
michael says, " erangi texaco lost. some of theri scientists were photocopying articles .... and sharing them ... archiving them ... they claimed Fair Use ("research") and lost in court ..."
Gloria says, "'That's okay, but I am afraid we are going into something that might not even exist.'"
MichaelV says, "Mike are we meeting next week? I can forward those e-mails to the listserv so everyone can see them."
lisa guest says, "as in use of an object.  The university may have bought books or computers but do they say it's their own.  They didn't write them nor create them.  "
MichaelV says, "oooh, very good lisa"
michael says, " say lisa -- one of the foundations of copyright law is that you can't copyright an idea, only it's physical expression ..."
Gloria says, "'That's where research stuff gets the boot, since resources are used alot"
lisa guest says, "so what is created out of those objects is because of our money not their entitlement"
madam guest says, "nor did they create the papers written from these resources""
michael says, "gloria, do you think it's a bad document, or we're just reading it wrong?"
Erangi says, "Michael, You sometimes use articles and stuff to share what's in them with us. I think that it should not be a problem because those areticles were written by someone for reading purposes. not just for fun right? So I think what you do is fair use too."
michael says, "you guys are great! what a good discussion this is ...."
Gloria says, "'I think it should be formatted in a way that we do not look into what doesn't apply to us.  Better structure is needed I think."
MichaelV says, "thanks mike, I think you are pretty great too."
lisa guest says, "ghee swell guys"
MichaelV laughs.
Erangi says, "I agree with Michael IV"
Erangi laughs.
Gloria says, "'Once we find out what it is about then we can decide if it is fair or not."
michael says, "lisa .... are you going to follow up w/ tony? no pressure ... but maybe he doesn't know about "e. student works""
MichaelV says, "so mike, should I forward those e-mails to the class listserv so everyone can read them? Are we meeting next week on here?"
lisa guest says, "I need to get that document before I do"
michael says, "gloria, erangi, madam guest: any questions or problems with the scenarios?"
Gloria says, "'It works well but I wish we could have concrete stuff to criticize."
Erangi says, "not really, But I would also be comfortable if I talk to you"
madam guest says, "I have an intersting scenario a student and staff member who"
michael says, " lisa, the relevant paragraph is at http://www.u.arizona.edu/ic/moore/414/mooip.html ... there's a link to the whole draft there, too ..."
madam guest says, "uses university resources for personal problems. This crosses three different issues""
michael says, "gloria, you can get a concrete example out of your azstarnet research, or your images from the diffusion report -- those are both good, aren't they?"
lisa guest says, "ok I'll give him a buzz but it will well maybe I can do it tomorrow.  Can I atleast have until Tues."
michael says, "gloria ... another possiblity is to have a few profs read the paragraph in question, interview them, and write up a summery"
michael  laughs at madam guest
Erangi says, "Michael what do you suggest I do"
Gloria says, "'Yeah, but the problem is that all the Documents are too technical and vagueeeee.  I think its a good idea to get everyone's opinion.  I'll do it."
Gloria says, "'But I would like to include all of the B categories in order to confirm my suspicions."
michael says, "erangi ... chris johnson has those four scenarios ... interview him on the nature of copying requests he gets, run them by carrie russell for Fair Use applicability, refernce a few of the resources (texaco is certainly applicable) and type it up ...."
madam guest says, "just a laugh, no response?""
michael says, " excuse us, madam guest, we're busy solving the world's problems ...."
michael says, " gloria -- absolutely! don't work with the paragraph out of context -- i just pulled it out for easy reference. to me, it's in plain english: "e. student works (The student owns his/her own works, unless ...""
madam guest says, "yes you are.""
michael says, "lisa, what's your comfort level in calling tony back? does he work for the regents? "
michael says, "did i see kimberly's name ...?"
lisa guest says, "he does work their.  He's the administrative something or other.  I'll call him but I'd like to take a look at the policy before entering the next conversation with him"
MichaelV says, "I haven't seen her contribute yet, but her name is in here."
michael says, "lisa, good idea ....."
michael says, "erangi, what do you think about that scenario?"
michael says, "geez, i'm doing all the yakking here ....."
Erangi says, "Michael, So that means I will be useing yours and Chris's experiences in typing the paper or is it something else you meant?"
lisa guest says, " I printed out the policy just now so I'll look over it and give him a call soon."
Gloria says, "'Lisa when you talk to him please let me know his response to the listserv, because I have a feeling it's just a bad document."
michael says, "erangi, you can mike your life easier by focusing on just one scenario: one of chris's, or one of mine .... one is enough."
lisa guest says, "you would like me to e-mail the listserv with his response?"
Gloria says, "'Yes please because it's pretty controversial"
michael says, "yes, lisa, please do ..."
Erangi says, "ok then I will just use your responces"
lisa guest says, "nevermind I am spacy today."
michael says, "just got an e-mail from burton -- he couldn't connect ...."
Erangi says, "..and go to carrie russel to see if you are practicing fair use"
lisa guest says, "I'm going to depart soon. Any last thoughts for me?"
MichaelV says, "too bad, I would have liked to have heard from Burton"
michael says, "erangi, so you'll take those problems and run them by carrie? if you're using mine, do you want something more specific? chris's scenarios are specific: see option #2 at http://www.u.arizona.edu/ic/moore/414/ip.html"
Gloria says, "'Michael, can you send a transcript to me as well."
Erangi says, "Lisa, have a good night :)"
lisa guest says, "Thank you and you as well"
Gloria says, "'Goodnight, Lisa'"
lisa guest says, "you too!"
michael says, "i'll post the transcript tonight ... hang on lisa -- one quick question ...."
michael says, "when's the last day of classes, anyone know? can we do this once more to followup? to see what happens?"
lisa guest says, "Wednesday"
MichaelV says, "night lisa"
lisa guest says, "Cinco de Mayo"
michael says, "is anyone up for it? sun/mon/tues night?"
Gloria says, "'Tuesday night for me"
Erangi says, "any night is ok"
michael says, "tuesday at 7:00?"
Gloria says, "'Good for me."
lisa guest says, "Can't do it Sun unless it's late and Mon after 9:00 and Tues looks good"
Erangi says, "me too"
MichaelV says, "I will be a llittle late but I will be here"
Erangi says, " does that mean we are done for today?"
lisa guest says, "If I don't work Tues. I'm in but I don't know what I work next week yet?"
michael says, "excellent. erangi, e-mail me and we'll talk about the scenarios. chris's may be better for your purposes. we'll see. it's up to you, though."
lisa guest says, "michael-did you have a question for me?"
Gloria says, "'Michael do I still have to e-mail Purell if I do thiss professor opinion thing."
michael says, "this was cool"
Erangi says, "michael, How about I come to see you on sunday or tomorrow after 5? Which is good for you?"
michael says, " gloria, no ... not if you get enough materials from the profs"
                               __________________________
                              |                          |
MichaelV holds up a BIG sign: | time is up, smoke break? |
                              |__________________________|
Gloria says, "'Okay I will disconnect now. Good night!"
MichaelV waves at Gloria.
michael says, " erangi, tommow is fine ... leave enough time to get ahold of carrie, though ..... "
MichaelV says, "bye gloria"
madam guest says, "good noght""
michael  waves to gloria
MichaelV says, "night madam"
Gloria says, "'Bye."
MichaelV waves at madam guest.
Gloria (asleep) has disconnected.
Erangi says, "Michael IV looks like you are really goot at this ugh?"
michael says, "madam -- how's yours looking?"
MichaelV says, "awww shucks"
lisa guest says, "can I disconnect?"
MichaelV salutes Erangi smartly.
madam guest says, "I need to split, but mine is fine""
michael says, "sure, lisa ... thanks .... "
michael says, "bye, everyone!"
MichaelV says, "bye lisa"
MichaelV says, "bye people"
MichaelV says, "hey mike can I visit you upstairs?"
lisa guest says, "good night sleep tight "
lisa guest has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove lisa guest.
MichaelV says, "don't let the bed bugs bite"
michael says, "mike -- breezeway!"
Erangi says, "Bye Micheal, I will see you tomorrow at 5"
MichaelV says, "be there in a sec"
Erangi says, "Oh where should I come to ?"
MichaelV (asleep) has disconnected.
michael says, "okay erangi -- see you then -- have a good night"
madam guest has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove madam guest.
michael says, " erangi -- humcat: ML512"
Erangi says, "ok . bye"
michael says, " bye"
michael goes out.
Erangi (asleep) has disconnected.

-- End log: Thursday, April 29, 1999 8:08:09 pm Old Pueblo MOO time --