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TUNISIA 1997
Interviews at the International Secretariat
Interviewer: Marc Saghie, Press Officer
Interview of Radhia Nasoui
Tunisian, August 1997; Commenced: 10:22:47
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My name is Radhia Nasraoui, I’ve been a lawyer for more than 20 years, and I’ve been involved in political trials ever since I started working. In fact, I remember that the first case I worked on was of a political nature. Things have stayed the same, and I intend to work on trials of this nature up to the very end of my career, if they continue.
I’m also being considered to be a human rights activist in Tunisia, and I am married to a political opponent of the government. Thus, I have always encountered problems, either because I defend political opponents, or because I’m the wife of an political opponent. My husband has always been tried, sentenced and jailed for his political opinions, and because of this I too have always been harassed by the Tunisian police.
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10:24:21:09 What made you become involved with cases of political opponents or prisoners of conscience?
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I think, from the beginning, that I chose this profession in order to be able to defend people. Because in a country like ours, there are a lot of people who need to be defended, either because they are politically active, or because they have problems of a different nature. Therefore I think that this is a profession which allows me, just a bit, to make my ideas become reality. I’ve always wanted to dedicate my life to defending people. It is almost as if I was born with this desire.
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10:25:23:11 What problems have you personally faced as a consequence of being a lawyer for prisoners of conscience or opponents of those in power?
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I’ve always had all different kinds of problems. For example, after a speech I made for the defence in a political case, I was arrested and brought before the examining magistrate. But thanks to the solidarity of my colleagues and of the democratic movement in Tunisia, and equally thanks to the support of international humanitarian organisations, I was released very quickly.
Then I’ve had several problems, especially during the last few years, because I’ve worked on very sensitive cases. I have had to defend activists who had been tortured, I have been compelled to denounce torture, because I believe this is a practise that must be banned by the end of this century. I believe it is totally unacceptable to torture people, and to torture them because they have different opinions. As a consequence of this I’ve had a series of problems. For example, my car, which for me is a essential for my work, was stolen. This happened to prevent me from doing my work. And then there’s my office, which has been vandalised twice. The last time this happened was on the 30th April 1997 (note from the International Secretariat: Radhia Nasraoui’s office was once again burgled in February 1998). The front door of my apartment was set alight, and a disaster was only avoided by chance. A child who was passing noticed that the door was ablaze and started shouting, so the neighbours tried to extinguish the fire. I’ve also been followed by the police. There are always police officers in front of the building [where my office is], to check up on who comes to visit me. The same thing happens in front of my house. At times I am followed by four policemen in a car. I’ve been the victim of practises of this kind, and what is really incredible is that every time I make a complaint against “X”, because I don’t know the name of the person, there is never an enquiry. It’s really remarkable. The guilty person is never found, as if by coincidence.
I’ve been making complaints for years. For example, I complain about the policemen who arrive at my home after midnight, who force the door open in order to terrorise me in the wake of a political trial. I make a complaint, but an enquiry is never held. These practises are forbidden by law, but I have never felt protected by the law in the way I should have been. Therefore I have been lead to think that these people could only have been police officers.
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10:29:05 Is it possible for you to defend people whose opinions you don’t share?
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If you try and look at the work I’ve done during the last 20 years, I’ve always had to defend people who have totally different ideas to mine. I’ve defended Islamists, Arab nationalists, and the wives of Islamists who have been condemned and forced to live in exile. These women have had a lot of problems, they are without their passports, they have come to see me to confront the Minister of the Interior for having refused them their passports. I’ve defended a wide range of trade unionists, I’ve defended students, left-wingers, and activists from the Tunisian Workers Communist Party (PCOT). I do not make any distinctions. If I think the Tunisians should enjoy their freedom, if I believe that their rights should be respected, I must not, above all as a lawyer, make a distinction between the people on the grounds of their ideology or their political views. If someone who is the victim of repression contacts me, it is my duty to defend him or her.
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10:31:00 You have just mentioned the case of activists’ wives who have been harassed. But the Tunisian government argues that women’s liberation is almost complete, and that women enjoy all their rights. What is your response to this kind of propaganda?
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It is true that the Tunisian government always tries to spread propaganda on this subject by saying that the situation of Tunisian women is clearly better than the situation of women in other Arab countries, that even Europeans are starting to envy Tunisian women because of the rights they enjoy. But I don’t agree with this at all, either in the law or in real life. I believe that in the area of the law, women are basically considered as second-class citizens. Within the family, the husband is always the boss. So it’s automatically up to him to make the most important decisions concerning the couple as well as the children.
The father is always the legal guardian; the woman can only take this role in his absence, that is if he has died or she can prove that he has disappeared for some reason or other. In the work place, I would say that the work of a woman is considered as additional; it’s the man who has to work first of all. Women are seen as superfluous.
In education, it’s the same thing. The thinking in certain regions is such that girls should go to school, but if necessary, should stay at home. It’s the boys who should go to school first of all. You only need to look at the rate of unemployment and illiteracy amongst women, which is always much higher than that of men.
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10:33:44:01 The harassment of women, just because they are the wives of political opponents, is not only an attack on women, because they are not considered human beings, they are not considered independent.
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You are perfectly right. It happens very often here, especially during the last few years. The wives of activists are being harassed solely because they are married to political opponents. With the cases I’ve worked on, it has involved women who have nothing to do with politics, but they have been summoned, sometimes even tortured, and have sometimes lost their jobs or passports. So the authorities make no distinction between husband and wife; a woman can be harassed not because of her own activities or beliefs, but because of her husband’s opinions. This has become very common in the last few years.
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10:34:58:01 What reforms at the level of the judiciary are necessary at the moment in Tunisia?
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I must say that concerning the judiciary, we have a big problem. Unfortunately, in Tunisia it is not independent. Firstly, magistrates are appointed by the President, and secondly, there is a superior council of the judiciary (conseil supérieur de la magistrature) which is presided over by the President, and the members are normally appointed too. Only a minority of members are elected.
The magistrates in our country should demand that this council is elected. We should elect the people onto this council, because it examines the documents for the disciplinary committee and decides on issues of promotion.
The principle of irremovable magistrates is not being respected in our country. A magistrate who dares to make a decision according to his conscience, can find himself sent to a court in the south of the country if his decision doesn’t please the authorities. This causes enormous problems for the magistrates. They are afraid of this situation as they have families and children at school or university. They certainly don’t want to be forced all of a sudden to leave their families and move to a remote area as punishment. This is very disturbing and it makes magistrates feel the weight of any conscientious decision. The problem of the independence of justice is very serious. We demand that magistrates should be completely independent. That is very important for Tunisians, and it is a demand which has been voiced over and over again. Lately, a paper on this matter was signed by 202 public figures in Tunisia and there has been a lot of publicity on the independence of magistrates.
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10:38:24:10 What about reforms in general? What can the international community do to put pressure on the government to improve the human rights situation in general in Tunisia?
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Personally, I believe that the responsibility on this level principally lies with the Tunisians themselves; it is the Tunisians who have to fight to establish respect for human rights and respect for freedom. But the international community has a very important role to play. For example, people now tell us: we cannot conceive how a government which does not accept the right to be different these days should be supported by foreign countries, for example.
You can always ask yourself the question: why is what is happening in Tunisia not being denounced by people who are concerned about human rights?
I believe that if humanitarian organisations and international organisations maintained their level of pressure and if people redoubled their efforts to denounce even more strongly the inhumane practises and all the anti-democratic measures which exist in our country, it would give results. It would certainly support the democratic movement in Tunisia which would be a good thing for us.
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10:40:03:08 Amnesty International, as you know, campaigns for the recognition of human rights as universal and indivisible. What is your opinion on this? And what do you think of countries which justify their actions by reasons of tradition or custom?
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Really, I think that human rights are universal. And people who try to say there are some specificities, usually say that to justify human rights violations. For example, in the Arab countries, you could say that torture does not go against the principles of Islam. But this, in our time, is absolutely outdated. This reactionary concept has to be fought against. Freedom of speech, the right to physical integrity, the freedom to belong to an organisation or a political party whatever it may be, are rights which should be respected everywhere. At the end of the twentieth century it is unacceptable that these freedoms are obstructed. These are universal principles, whether you are in an Arab country, a European country, an Asian country or the USA, the right to physical integrity must be respected, without exception. It should be taken for granted.
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10:44:16:05 You have raised the question of torture, especially the torture of women. Do you have any specific examples?
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I can tell you that apart from methods that are used for both men and women, there are methods used specifically against women. Often in the police stations, there is a threat of sexual harassment. Women are touched, forced to take off their clothes, something which is very hard for a woman, especially for a Tunisian woman.
I’ve also had cases where the situations have been really serious. I’ve had two pregnant women who had been arrested in connection with a trial against activists of the Tunisian Workers Communist Party (PCOT). I remember that they were obliged to release on of them, because they had beaten her so severely on her abdomen that she almost aborted the child. When they realised the danger, they let her out, and left her outside the police station, so that she would have to manage all alone. She succeeded in getting home, and her parents took her to hospital, where she received treatment. Medical experts who were at the court said that there was a great risk of aborting the child. Even pregnant women are not treated with respect. Here, they are usually treated more gently and more humanely. People find it unacceptable that a pregnant woman is beaten on her stomach, with such terrible results.
This woman was only free for two days, long enough for her to receive basic medical care, after which she was rearrested! Amnesty did a lot of work on behalf of these two women and many people have protested against their treatment. These two women, who had been sentenced to several months in prison, were released after two months. They were pardoned, mainly thanks to Amnesty’s work.
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